【访谈】艾未未与庄辉1-2《白皮书》1995
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[楼主] yahoo 2010-02-18 01:10:49
白皮书
1995
访艾未未-1

1995.9.5
艾未未 庄辉


庄:作为对僵化已久的中国美术状态的反叛,80年代初,“星星”美展为中国的现代艺术活动拉开了帷幕,显然,它本身具有的意义已经超越了一个展览的话题。据我了解,你是一个参与者并且后来留学美国。

艾: “星星”美展的整个历史轮廓比较清晰。现在人们的评价是,它从艺术上没有太多的创举。但是,我认为它重要的一点在于,艺术家的一个兼职的问题,艺术家必须表达自己,同时争取这个表达的权力,当这种表达遇到威胁的时候,他仍然能坚持这个权力,这体现了艺术家的尊严,而尊严本身,常常比一件好的作品更重要。自我表达是人的精神活动的基本形式,通过这种表达使自我在精神上健全,使社会在政治上民主,使人类进步。对一个从事艺术活动的人来说,表达的愿望和争取这种权力的努力常常是不可分割的。对自由表达的限制、破坏,是权力对个人的最本质的破坏,是对人的尊严和生命本身的践踏。而今天我们可以看到这种对人的自由思想的摧残仍然存在。艺术家生活在社会当中,不能够回避这些问题。

庄:美国的教育同中国大陆教育制度的差异一定很大。

艾:在西方艺术教育中,比较注重每个人的个性。它不同于中国学院内有一个先入为主的标准。在西方艺术教育中不存在这种问题, “标准”这种意识本身就是错误的。因为艺术创作就是在不断否定标准的同时,去更新感受、思想和艺术观念,找到个人的方式和风格,个人原始的创作特征。在这种精神指导下,你无论用什么材料、方式都会受到重视和鼓励,都可能成为很好的作品。当然,一个艺术导师会提供自己的美学观点,但不会以自己的标准作为判断学生的尺度,他更注重你的发展状态如何。比如说,走在路上的仪仗队有自己的走法,但是,你不能用这种方式去要求一个走在钢丝上的杂技演员。每个人都有自己特殊的方式,都有可能以一种不同的完美状态出现。

庄:那么,在学院内,导师是否允许学生从材料或者行为等诸多语言中人手。

艾:基本上如此,当然它有不同的课,不同的课题,比如说他会设定你解决一些有关材料或空间的问题,或者是关于外部空间和闭合式空间的一些问题。比如雕塑课,讲到对空间的应用,物在什么样的受力情况下,如何的压迫、变形。这样你会对一个物质、一个形体的本质有所认识。如此,你便不会把自己的思路降到一个工匠的程度上。而对物的运动方式及存在规律性产生了理解,包括如何去处理材料等等。

庄:近来,国内许多艺术家从材料人手,进行自己的实验创作,但面临的首要问题就是艺术语言本身的问题。如果只是将一堆材料简单地按照自己预先设定的观点,组装、摆放等等,并不去考虑语言本身具有的精神力量,这种作品显然是不成功的‘

艾:一个艺术家,必须认识到艺术语言的重要性。每个人都有表达的欲望,但是,这种欲望常常在没有娴熟语言的情况下,被破坏了。只有这套语言,在一定条件下把自己的思想体现出来,才能有效。如果艺术能够引起某种共鸣和发生作用,艺术家就必须考虑作品给观众的感受问题,这是对作品和观众两者间深度的把握和理解。

庄:还有另一个问题存在。比如说,作一件关于环境或社会化问题的作品,艺术家并不是首先从它内在的语言结构人手,而是漫无边际的去考证环境与人类、与社会之间发生的很多关系,最终去设定一个点子来完成。

艾:我们可以从社会或政治角度出发,因为人生活在社会中,他无疑同社会各种事物会发生关系。正如一个政治家,如果他不具有良好的政治语言,就不可能有好的政治方式。作为一个艺术家,如果缺少个人的艺术语言,无论你关心任何话题,与艺术本身却毫无关系。

庄:在美国经历一个阶段的学习之后,你自己的艺术特征是否已基本形成

艾:我意识到艺术存在着形而上的问题,逐渐对艺术的语言问题产生了兴趣。后来作了一些同它有关的作品。比如说在什么情况下一个形式或一种状态会发生作用,它为什么会发生作用。为什么我们在看到一件日常的物品和一件艺术品的时候会感受不同,这种不同到底是在我们看到时发生了什么,而这种异样的感受才出现了。我在这方面作了一些尝试。

庄:你这一时期的作品,比如将两只皮鞋切开后,取掉其中某一部分,然后重新缝合,把已经成为日常的、公众化的视觉形象,从材质上作了某种改变,而结果却迫使观众在思维方式上发生一种变化。

艾:艺术的力量是心理上的力量,不是说,你做了多么大的一件作品,这件作品做了多少年,或者行走了多远等等。而问题是,这种事情怎样在我们心理上发生了作用。因为,艺术不论怎样来说它还是关于人的思维的行为,而人的思维力量是可以无限大的(至少人自己这样认为。) ,一件事情的重要程度也是因为我们认为它是否重要而取定的

庄:你认为艺术家在社会中应扮演什么样的角色?

艾:艺术家在理性的社会系统中要扮演的角色,应当是一种病毒,如同电脑中的病毒。一个很小的设计,能够让整个理性世界发生一定的变化,而这种变化引起的混乱,实质上是对理性世界引起警觉的过程。这是今日艺术很重要的一个功能。否则,艺术如果只是一种公共道义的话,那么,它远远不如诸如科学活动的成效大。艺术是人的一种非分之想。我们生活当中的一系列思想都是以系列的不变的概念造成的。比如一幢大厦盖一万层,但仍是需用一种标准的砖头来营造它,如果一件好的设计,能使一块砖头发生变化,它就能使整个大厦的结构发生变化。这种文化上、心理上的颠覆意识,是一件作品中的力量所在。

庄:艺术家应当具有这种颠覆意识,颠覆不仅仅意味着破坏,它为人们提供了新的可能性。

艾:我们周围强大的系统正在形成,全世界范围内这种语言的标准化,欲望的标准化,信息的垄断和系统化。导致代表个人意志个人精神存在价值的力量在全面消失,这个消失的速度远比丛林以及稀有动物消失的速度快的多。这是更应该令人类感到恐怖的问题。

庄:你认为前卫的意义还存在吗?假如存在,它表现在什么地方?

艾:我认为前卫运动的意义在中国几乎不存在,因为中国没有形成一个强大的后方。任何一种思想如果有它新的独立见解的话,它就是前卫的。而中国的文化处境是,除了有经济上的困扰和自身文化近几百年以来的沉重负担以外,仍受困于其它的问题,这些是作一个中国艺术家的特殊性。中国艺术家面临的问题,不仅仅是一个文化的问题,是要争取表达自由、生存空间等等的一系列问题。中国缺少真正的知识分子阶层,缺少受过良好教育的民众。谈到中国的艺术,就必须研究中国的人文环境、生存环境,因为我们已很清楚的感觉到,艺术家连最基本的生活保障都发生了问题,这就直接影响到了大多数艺术家的品性和思考。

庄:你把很多的问题,放到一个具体的范围中去认识、实施,这种方式很有效。

艾:考虑自己真正要说什么,想法是什么,在众多的艺术当中属于我的语言究竟有多少。关于“皮毛”的作品是一种尝试,我将两块不同颜色的皮毛,装在一个很小的平面中,是传统的方式,它拥有观众在面对一张绘画作品时所具有的那种亲切关系。让观众认为它是一件作品,不是所谓的现成物,是一种极为自然的同时是极不自然的东西。极为自然之物,必须具有一个极为不自然的环境。我也画了一批画,都是建立在这种想法上的。生活的速度太快了,从而把大和小的概念一下子变得模糊,我们应当去仔细的体验自己的生活,从艺术的本质问题入手,解决一、二个小的问题,设计出一种方式。如果人们都只想作文化部长或是去主导潮流,这个社会就未免无聊了‘

庄:你怎么看争论中的所谓中心和边缘话题的问题。

艾:所谓中心、边缘的概念都是相对的。如果一个人已经不承认上帝的存在,那么他个人就是中心

庄:很多问题就出在这里,我们总是去关心那些东西方对话民族主义等等毫无关系的问题,却不去把焦点对准自己。一些人,总是试图把握不同人的社会趋同性,将一些话题刻意加工后以商业操作的手段使其成为潮流,它实质是对艺术家的阖割

艾:社会中的风波,有各自的目的,往往能为人带来实际利益。一个艺术家的职责,就是要在自我批判、自我否定的过程中,逐渐找到相对的和谐.合理的方式。他人是不能给你提供答案的。不断地怀疑权威,怀疑中心论,怀疑所谓的文化势力‘

庄:我怀疑,文化是恒古不变的吗?如果回答是否定的,我就非常难以理解,很多艺术家,以大量的精力置身于寻根的热潮,难道这一切对中国今日的文化建设会有益处吗?

艾:对文化问题不必过多的去谈论,中国的文化历史没有对现实起有益的作用,人类已经不必去炫耀自己的伟大历史而获得成功,这一点,已经被很多国家和民族发生的事实所证实。我们的民族是一个讲究实用的民族,由于多年来的不幸遭遇,使人们对不能够直接产生效益的东西,不屑一顾。忘记所谓的文化问题,更多去关注自己的生存处境,看另外一些人是怎么思考问题的,这可能对我们有某种启发,早日回到自己的问题当中

庄:我们都知道,沃霍尔是60年代之后最具有影响力的一位艺术家,甚至有人预言:沃霍尔的出现使当代艺术面临着一场深刻的革命。

艾:沃霍尔是一个有觉悟的人,觉悟到了商业社会的到来。人们的个性消失,价值可以被重复制作、重新生产,人的需求量导致对质量要求的低劣。比如说,她用这个香水,你也用;他喝那种可乐,你也喝那种可乐。这种在现代生活中个性消失的特征被沃霍尔把握到了,他本人并不认为他自己是一个有任何个性的人,他就是你喜欢的东西,你要什么,他就给你什么,你觉得什么流行,我就尽快去生产这种东西,他的整个方式是对个性的忽略否定。

沃霍尔把自己变成了一个可以被一切渗透的海绵体,他希望毫无抗拒的被周围的任何事物渗透。无论任何人,任何事,他都会为他们拍一些照片或录音,他就如一个永久的宴会,谁都可以随便出入。沃霍尔制造了这么一个美国式的神话,荒诞、无聊,但是,这里的生活本身就很荒诞、很无聊,因为有了他的这种无聊和荒诞使人变的很充实。当回顾20世纪的艺术时我认为,沃霍尔是继杜桑之后主要的一个精神存在。他的大众化、标准化及平民化,是这个时期艺术的主要特征。所谓的波普艺术实际是一种平民化的东西,它同中国的“波普”是两种不同的概念

(根据录音整理)









访艾未未-2
1995.11.14 北京


庄:你认为自己从事的艺术活动是观念性的吗?

艾:任何现代艺术作品,所具有的价值,都是观念性的。在杜桑之后所有的艺术的存在、和其价值都是观念性的,杜桑为现代艺术提供了一个新的语境。

庄:在你的艺术工作中,观念是被作为第一性,还是个人感受的经验作为第一性?

艾:这是一个较为复杂的问题。应该说观念是第一性的,我们首先作出判断和选择,有了理性的前提,感性在某个时刻才可能发生作用。作为一个观念艺术家,是否定情感在作品中的作用的。感性往往会将我们引入其它方面,它的确不是能够控制的东西。我的态度比较折衷,注重动机,也注重效果。

庄:观念艺术中,由于人们思维意志的准确陆、敏感性,它同样会给一个人带来未知的结果

艾:这是观念艺术家谈论已久的十个问题。有人认为理性的思维只能带来理性的结果,而非理性的思维却能带来无数结果和新的经验,提供一个可能性的空间

庄:你是否更注重艺术的上下文关系?

艾:有一位观念艺术家曾经说过, “凡是这个时代重要的作品,都给了艺术一个新的定义。”你首先应当知道什么是旧的定义,否则不可能提出所谓新的定义。无论你是如何的突破,它还是相对于传统的基础而言。

庄:60年代之后,在美国、欧洲等地兴起的观念艺术运动,是否在艺术史中起到了重要作用

艾:我认为他们是近代艺术史上最优秀的一批人。在他们的艺术活动中,否定了一个传统艺术家由绘画、雕塑而来的局部的经验。克瑟斯是这个时期重要的人物,它首先提出在今天,艺术已经代替了哲学,艺术家不仅仅是个人作品的陈述者,同时负有对观念陈述的责任。他以更直接的方式去参与社会的活动,给艺术下了新的定义。同时,由于他的一系列作品及活动,为观念艺术的兴起和发展提供了左证。这批人的作品涉及的问题比较多,比如针对画廊和由画商和画家所形成的商业关系,重新审视艺术和艺术品的真实含义,并否定了作品的买卖关系,所作的作品基本上是不可收藏的,这包括了当时的大地艺术家、行为艺术家等,他们是思想上非常活跃的一批人‘

庄:观念艺术非常重要的作用,是把艺术从附属的地位分离了出来。

艾:最早提出这个问题的艺术家是杜桑,他曾谈到过自己在年青时厌恶的一句话, “那人愚蠢的就像一个艺术家”杜桑批评了被他称为“视网膜”绘画的印象派时期的艺术,在论证西方绘画的历史中谈到了思想在艺术中的重要性。这个问题到了60年代才被人们真正认识到。当时克瑟斯作了一个很好的比喻:如果说波洛克的绘画有什么意义的话,它无非是在绘画时不是画在与地面垂直角度的画布上,而是画在平放在地面的画布上。但是,具有讽刺意味的是,在他完成自己的作品之后,仍然需要将画绷起挂在与地面垂直的博物馆墙上展出。从这里我们可以看出一个观念艺术家对于自己的作品的一种态度。观念艺术家把问题考虑的整体化了。现在我们看到的一些艺术家的作品,好像似有某种观念存在,但在展示及其它的一些方式上就暴露出了假象,他的态度,展出方式、销售方式与其作品的观念完全是相左的,从而失去了一致性’

庄:你能谈一下克瑟斯的近期作品吗?

艾:前几年,克瑟斯把布鲁克林博物馆馆藏作品中被历史上各代,由于各种宗教、主义、道德的原因而被否定的作品选择出来,布置了一个“不可提及之展”作为他的一个展览。这个展览的主题十分明确,它展示了艺术定义在人类历史的不同时期中所发生的变化,其中一条是希特勒所强调的“人民是鉴定艺术的唯一标准。”

庄:美国艺术比较活跃的时期是六、七十年代吗?

艾:应该这样说,这个时期是艺术走的比较远的时代庄:80年代之后美国艺术有什么重要昀事情发生吗?

艾:我个人认为,八十年代是一个糟糕的时期,是艺术商人挣了钱的时期,是多数艺术家在精神上感到压抑的一个时代。

庄:进入八十年代末期,由于全球冷战结束,苏共阵营解体,欧盟各国加大了共同合作的步伐。在这种前景下,流行于学术界中的后现代主义多元理论也迅然奋起,从某种意义上讲,历史为今天的人们赋予了新的责任。我们已经逐渐消除了对那些所谓的民族主义、国家利益等等话题关怀的热情。

艾:九十年代的艺术发生了一些变化,人们从八十年代轰轰烈烈的潮流中走向了艺术的个人化、多元化,这实际上是人们对个人状态和个人方式的重新审视,由于近几十年来电视’计算机、信息网络的发展,使代表着个人意志、个人特征的艺术形式在逐渐消弱, (包括受安迪.沃霍尔思潮的影响。),这种处境一旦被人们省悟,就会发现我们作为个人存在的方式已经不存在了,这是一种人类前所未有的状态。

庄:那么,我们最终要寻找什么样的结果呢?

艾:最终,是否要达到一种群体性的思维方式,还是像人们今天鼓吹的走向个人自由化的状态,还需要人们去探讨。当然,从某些意义来说,现在存在的方式还是比较古老的,只有几个共同的价值观,在精神上实际没有太大的不同

庄:你认为艺术中存在所谓的创造性吗?

艾:我不喜欢创造这个词,它是一个比较宗教的概念,是我们谈上帝的时候从无到有的一种奇迹般东西,谈创造性是夸张了自己的功能。

庄:最后你是否能谈一下目前艺术家所普遍面对的一些问题。

艾:我认为,现在的艺术家无论中国还是西方的,都普遍对艺术的原始功能、今天的艺术到底是什么?这方面问题的发问比较少,而对功利及短期效益的考虑比较多。所以,多数人还是属于机会主义的方式,我们的时代缺少有独立人格的、有自己独特价值观的一批艺术家。

(根据录音整理)
[沙发:1楼] guest 2010-06-28 09:42:26
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[板凳:2楼] guest 2010-06-29 09:40:21
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[地板:3楼] guest 2010-06-30 09:15:23
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[4楼] guest 2010-07-05 09:42:21
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