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毛里左.卡特兰
Maurizio Cattelan
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上图：毛里左.卡特兰
点击：超级资料
访谈：特殊场合中没有蛋糕
内容来源于 FlashArt online.com
胡筱潇/译
毛里左。卡特兰（Maurizio Cattelan）-- 著名意大利艺术家
海伦娜。孔塔瓦（HELENA KONTOVA）-- Flash Art 杂志主编
海伦娜。孔塔瓦（HELENA KONTOVA）:你在德国柏林生活了差不多1年时间。在这个城市的文化和艺术家之间，你与他们的关系以及经验是什么样的呢？
毛里左。卡特兰（Maurizio Cattelan）:首先，我并没有什么特别的经验。不像大多数策展人，如阿里（Ali）, 马希米里阿诺（Massimiliano）那样。我没有像他们那样跑遍世界的每个角落，去寻找神秘的名字和不为人知的面孔，然后在第四届柏林双年展中把他们放到一起。我们倒是非常关注栽培坚实的根基以及和柏林城建立连接的观念。对于它的领域，我们也非常关注：我们在展览前的一年开了一个艺术空间，在那我们展开了在德国研究的大半东西。我们的旅行交通方式大多是坐火车。如果你看一些东西足够长的时间，任何东西将变得有趣。甚至最小的和最无关紧要的细节也能包括整一个世界。
HK:从纽约到柏林，可以说，是一流的优秀老美国的文化温床到虚弱的老欧洲过程：这是如何改变的，伴随着这个改变的又是什么差异？
MC:这就是优秀的老美国——就像你说的——和今天的样子一样，它从没有经历如此大的危机的恐慌和失败的畏惧。梦想正式地变成一种可怕的东西。我推测，从前已被忘记的幽灵，如经济危机，伴随着越来越巨大的力量，再现在每个晚上。老欧洲正在面对一个新的冲突：在西方，老欧洲的限制意识正在和情绪高亢的东方所有新兴的国家做斗争，现在这已经决定性地让他们睁开眼睛正视现实。艺术从未在这样激进的改变中被忽视过。有人说斗争和战争从没有赢家，只有幸存者。
HK: 在你的法兰克福的展览中，你展示了成一系列的6个新作品(波提科斯美术馆Portikus 和MMK)。在将近2年时间里，你没有创作任何新作品，而这次展览是非常重要的呈现和说明。
MC:在最近2年的过程中，我不得不和图像做斗争。策划一个双年展和展示新的作品像是试图同时仰泳和看前方。但是最后，像被迫流放一样，我决定逆来顺受，并去经历它。这个不可避免的必要的行动带来的挑战，几乎像禅宗的练习。在俄罗斯它们习惯说，柏林是西方的睾丸，如果他们想去制造西方的尖叫，他们所有人不得不做的就是踢向柏林。幸运的是，今天没有人想去踢它或者让它尖叫，但是它过去的尖叫的回声在每一个大厦和每一条街的每一个角落里。也许我的新作品就是要在这些尖叫中起到回应，但我只是从必要性出发发出行动。我是一种力，但不是暴力。
HK：你策划了一个在德国的大规模的国际展览——第四届柏林双年展。在德国，德国当代艺术结构和毛里左。卡特兰之间，现在是否有一种全部不可理解的东西？第三帝国的气氛和记忆是不是已经特别刺激你这个曾经是来自帕多瓦[意大利东北部城市]的男孩的敏感和记忆？
MC：我唯一可以设法去思考的关联，是第三帝国和帕多瓦之间， “Rauss,”这个词。当我还小的时候，我还没有懂得它是什么意思，但经常看到这个词被写在墙上。顺便开个玩笑，毫无疑问，这些年，德国已经熟练地发展成一个充满网络的美术馆和机构。老实说，几乎每个角落，画廊或者空间里面，艺术家和任何人都想展示他们的作品。我想我没有在任何世界的其他部分看到过这样类似的渴望，几乎是艺术的过度曝光，一个放大透镜坚持不懈地聚焦世界，准备揭示任何矛盾或不定性。如今德国像是对人性内在价值怀疑和恐惧的扩音器。我觉得很好，虽然我觉得在短时间内会被惊吓后逃跑。我猜恐惧是罪恶自省的道德承担。
HK：你不认为所有美国大的，国际化的美术馆，特别是主办者，经常笨到几乎不能见多识广，于是妨碍了代理的作品，而变成了审查者？
MC：艺术家从没有完全的自由过。甚至在过去最伟大的艺术家也不得不处理他们的经济支持者的反复无常的态度，以及要还通过诸如此类的人或者事的态度。贯穿历史，虽然，总是有空想家和勇敢的局外者，当艺术家说谎时他们依然相信艺术家。而且，我们都不诚实，我们承诺建在一个没有河流的桥梁上。
HK：你已经在不同的洲和国家工作过。你认为在哪里你的作品获得最大的赏识？对你来说，你意大利式（和欧洲式）文化背景有没有造成理解的问题？
MC：我想我总是在理解上有问题，我去的哪个地方都是，即使在今天当人们和我谈论成功和价值的时候我还是很惊讶。这是一个立场，我总是有不同的时间段的接受度，我并不依赖于可以称为我的“文化背景”或“地点”去寻找自我。
HK：你的“C夫人”传达给我们的是什么？这个苗条的日耳曼的“灵性”的女人，她从树的顶端向世界张开她的双臂，好像拥抱和保有博爱？如果圣音（La Nona Ora，即圣经中的第九个小时）在尘世中抛弃我们，你是否相信只有你的圣女，也许是母亲，可以拯救我们？
MC：我不知道C夫人试图在什么程度上拯救人类或使我们理解我们毁灭的程度。她像是给我一个启示，一个宗教的幻影。告诉你真理，我依然没有全部地理解。如果她向天空崛起，或者像是某人打倒了她一般缓慢地转向地面。这肯定是独有的事件，好像是圣迹，那些时刻中的一个，你突然认识到你总是在吃的东西是多么荒诞，你多少年来说的是多么无价值，。
HK：如果我没有搞错，这是一个女人第一次出现在你的作品中，至少是一种很成功的方式。由于女人，我们因此希望被拯救？毛里兹。卡特兰是否已经看见通向大马士革(叙利亚首都)路上的光？这个时刻一束女性的光？
MC：有时候拯救从你最小的企盼中而来。它可以是明斯特的一个湖里的一卷可观的纸币，或是去某个美术馆的受欢迎的拜访者，带着乔治亚。奥基弗（Georgia O’Keefe）的面相。事实上，女人们已经是我作品中的主要角色。比如最近的一件作品，是一个滑稽的老女人，贮在一个电冰箱里，在胡萝卜和蛋黄酱之间。也许这些作品中没有一个是胜利的，但是他们依然是不可预料和离奇的图像。毕竟在艺术中，一些人只是想要惊奇。
HK：粘在墙上的那些手臂，明显是一种礼庆的公共行礼致敬的动作，强烈地唤起了人们对臭名昭著的希特勒的印象。什么是你在政治上的，诙谐的或支持性的相似和差异？
MC：图像总是含糊的。我总是随着它们的不确定性工作，忍住任何说出绝对真理的诱惑。但是给你一种直接的回答：确实批判的和诙谐的。举起的手臂为的是给我一种与众不同的权力的符号，一种潜在的勃起，但是也是绝对的判断上的悬而未决。没有人已经在理解上成功过，罗马人举手礼从哪里来，他们是如何创造它的？但是怀疑在时间中还没有剥夺它的力量。最后，如果我不得不在两种邪恶中选择，我将总是会选择更坏的那个。
HK：如果男人失去他们的躯体，只是保持他们的手成为一些怀旧的姿势，马失去它们的头但保持它们整个躯体：非正当的报复的法则中，如此强烈的图像的后面隐藏了什么？
MC：印象非常深刻的是，你告诉我图像非常强烈，我在那时只是不想隐藏任何东西。我们全部丢掉了我们的头，更坏的事，我们总是丢掉了我们最关心的东西。
HK:最后，那个蛋糕，一个简单的，超级美味的蛋糕：那是什么场合？或者更确切地说，它只是加剧生活悲剧的糖衣炮弹？
MC：我从没喜欢过庆典。艺术必须是我们每日的面包，不只是特殊场合中的蛋糕。
作品：
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C夫人., 2007. 综合媒材.装置视角， 波提卡斯（ Portikus）, 法兰克福.
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菲利克斯, 2001.聚乙烯树脂和玻璃纤维上油彩, 182 x 356 x 54 m. 装置视角Baltic, Gateshead空间, 英国.
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欢乐的臭混混， 2005-07.泰特现代美术馆，行为，伦敦
NO CAKES FOR SPECIAL OCCASIONS
MAURIZIO CATTELAN
Helena Kontova
HELENA KONTOVA: You lived for almost a year in Germany, in Berlin. How was
this experience and your relationship to the artists and the culture of the city?
Maurizio Cattelan: First of all, I didn’t have this experience alone. Unlike most
curators, Ali, Massimiliano and I did not run all over the world in search of mysterious
names and unknown faces to put together the 4th Berlin Biennial. Instead, we focused
on the idea of planting solid roots and establishing connections with the city of Berlin
and its region: we opened a gallery a year before the exhibition and we developed the
majority of our research in Germany. Most of our traveling was done by train. If you
look at something for long enough, anything can become interesting. Even the smallestand most insignificant detail can include a whole world.
HK: From New York to Berlin, which is to say, the cultural hotbed of the good old US
of A to the fragility of old Europe: how was this change, and what differences did this
change entail?
MC: It looks like the good old US — as you say — has never experienced such a fear of crisis and a dread for failure as it is today. The dream has officially become a
nightmare. Supposedly forgotten specters from the past, like economic crises, reappear every night with greater and greater force. Old Europe is facing a new conflict; the awareness of its limits in the West is fighting against the euphoria of all the new countries of the East, which have now definitively got their heads out of the sand. Art is never indifferent to such radical changes. Someone said that fights and battles never have winners, only survivors.
HK: You presented a series of six new works in your show in Frankfurt (at Portikus and MMK). This was a very important statement after almost two years without producing any new work. Why this long pause? And did Germany, with its history and memories, stimulate you in any particular way?
MC: Over the course of these last two years, I have had to fight against images. To curate a biennial and to present new works seemed like trying to backstroke swimming and to look ahead at the same time. But in the end, I decided to grin and bear it and to live it as if in forced exile, a challenge to the inevitable necessity to act, almost like a Zen exercise. In Russia they used to say that Berlin was the balls of the West, and if they wanted to make the West scream, all they had to do was kick Berlin. Fortunately,
today no one wants to kick it or make it scream, but the screams of its past echo in
every edifice and on the corners of every street. Maybe my new works resound
within those screams, but I only reacted to a necessity. I am a vector, not a force.
HK: You curated a large-scale international exhibition in Germany, the 4th Berlin
Biennial. Is there now a kind of overall understanding between Germany, German
contemporary art structures and Maurizio Cattelan? Has the atmosphere and memory of the Third Reich stimulated in particular the sensibility and memories of the boy from Padua that you once were?
MC: The only connection that I can manage to think of between The Third Reich and Padua is the word “Rauss,” which I used to see written on walls when I was ynung without ever understanding what it meant. Joking aside, there is no doubt that over the
years Germany has expertly developed a rich network of museums and institutions,
to the point that on almost every corner there is a gallery or space in which artists or
anybody who wants to can show their work. I don’t think I have ever seen a similar urge in any other part of the world, there’s almost an over exposure of art, a magnifying lens constantly focused on the world, ready to reveal any contradiction or ambiguity. Today Germany is something like an amplifier for the doubts and fears intrinsic to human nature. I feel good there, although I feel like running away terrified after a few
hours. I guess fear is guiltiness’ tax on conscience.
HK: Don’t you think that the big, international museums, above all in the USA, but in
particular the sponsors, often heavy and barely informed, can interfere with the work of commissions and become censors?
MC: Artists have never been completely free. Even the greatest of the past had to deal
with the whimsical mood of their masters and whatnot to get by. Throughout history,
though, there have always been some visionary and courageous outsiders, who
trusted the artists even when they were lying. Besides, we’re all untruthful; we
promise a bridge where there’s no river.
HK: You have worked on various continents and different countries. Where do you
think your work is the most appreciated? Has your Italian (and European) cultural
background created problems of comprehension for you?
MC: I think I have always had problems being understood, wherever I go, and still
today I am surprised when people speak to me of success and appreciation. This is a
position I have always had a difficult time accepting, independently of my so-called
cultural background or the place in which I find myself.
HK: What is your Frau C. communicating to us, this slightly Nordic “epiphanal”
woman, who from the top of the tree spreads her arms toward the world as if to embrace and save humanity? If La Nona Ora lays us down in the dust, do you believe that only your sainted woman, maybe the mother, can raise us up?
MC: I don’t know how much Frau C. is trying to save the human race or is trying
to make us understand to what extent we are damaged. She seems like a revelation
to me, a religious apparition. To tell you the truth, I still haven’t entirely understood
if she is rising up to the sky or is slowly descending to the ground as if somebody had knocked her down. It is certainly a unique event, like one of those moments, as if by miracle, you suddenly realize how absurd what you have always eaten is and how useless what you have been saying for years is.
HK: If I am not mistaken, this is the first time that a woman has appeared in your work, at least in an almost triumphant way. Is woman therefore our hope for salvation? Has Maurizio Cattelan seen the light on the road to Damascus, this time a feminine light?
MC: Sometimes salvation comes from where you least expect it, it could be
wading in a lake in Münster or welcoming visitors to a museum with a Georgia
O’Keefe mask. In fact, women have always been the main character of my work. One
of the last, for example, was a funny old lady stuck in a refrigerator, between the
carrots and the mayonnaise. Maybe none of these works were triumphal, but still they
were unexpected and uncanny images. After all art only works if there is someone
who wants to be surprised.
HK: The arms that stick out of the wall, in an apparently festive public salute, are strongly evocative of the notorious Heil Hitler. What are the analogies, the differences. Is yours critical, parodic or supportive?
MC: Images are always ambiguous. I have always worked with their uncertainty,
resisting to any temptation to tell any absolute truth. But to give a straight answer
to your question: critical and parodic for sure. The raised arm for is for me an extraordinary symbol of power, an erection in potential but also the absolute suspension of judgment. No one has ever succeeded in understanding
where the Roman salute comes from and who invented it, but the doubt hasn’t divested it of its force throughout time. In the end, if I have to choose between two evils, I’ll always take the worse.
HK: If men lose their bodies and keep only their hands for some nostalgic gesture, the horse loses its head but keeps its whole body: what perverse law of an eye for an eye is hidden behind such strong images?
MC: What is really impressive is that the images you call<
Throughout history,hough, there have always been some visionary and courageous outsiders, whotrusted the artists even when they were lying. Besides, we’re all untruthful; wepromise a bridge where there’s no river.
